Gifted for Leadership: Disappointed Women, Angry Men

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December 11, 2007

Disappointed Women, Angry Men

by by Caryn Rivadeneira

After our church council made the recent decision not to hold the door open for the women to become elders and deacons (see "Let Men Get the Door" for my first post on this topic), my friend Anne suggested the main reason was because "it is easier to deal with disappointed women than angry men."

While this may seem harsh to say about the decision-making process of godly men, I think she's right (and could be right about most decisions made throughout history!). Because when I've asked about the reasons for the decision, here's a bit of what I've been told: "It's not the right time because too many people would leave" (and we're building a new church), "Where will men serve in the church if they don't have this?" and "We can't follow culture downhill."

Of the 17 out of 30 who voted against allowing women, surely one of them based his decision on Scripture (and feels comfortable defending why some verses are culturally applicable and others irrelevant), but I'll be darned if I've heard it! Instead, in this mix of offensive and ridiculous reasons, I hear echoes of some very angry male congregants who voiced their opposition to women in office during "town hall" meetings. In their rants against women in office and women in general, they made it clear, there would be hell to pay (literally) if the measure passed. (Quick note: I realize many of you reading this agree with the angry men. Great. I respect your opinion. Now, deep breath. In, out. Read on.)

The voices for women in office (and of course I am biased!) were gentler, less threatening, and apparently less impactful. So it turned out to be easier to hurt and disappoint than to stir an angry mob. Simple crowd control, as Anne suggested.

Of course, this is nothing new in the realm of decision-making. Appeasing the loud and angry is how decisions are made from Capitol Hill down to my kitchen. It's how we feign control and power. But while it's an easy method, it's not a good one - and definitely not a godly one.

While my beloved, wonderful church's decision to continue to leave gifted women outside the upper echelons of leadership has left me among the disappointed, wounded, dismayed, and very angry, it's opened my eyes a bit at toward my own decision-making processes.

How often do I still look to what's popular, to what makes the fewest ripples, or to what appeases the loudest, scariest group? How accurately do I measure "easy" against "right"? And how often do I truly allow trusting God to mean more than fearing backlash?

I'd like to say I'd make decisions differently, better, were I on my church's council. But I won't be getting that chance. At least not this year. Perhaps if we come back louder and angrier, we'll reach some hearts and heads, but I'm praying that the Holy Spirit's whispers get there first.

Comments

Caryn, the Holy Spirit has left the building. Your church obviously no longer serves Christ. Time to leave.

While it MAY be time to leave, it's not for the reason you give. Christ is still served, and the Holy Spirit is still present. Every Christian makes hurtful, bad, wrong decisions in the eyes of others every day. It doesn't mean the Holy Spirit has left them or that Christ is not served. Just that we're fallen.

The movie "The Gospel" ends with a line something like, "There are no perfect churches, only a perfect God." That's important to remember.

Caryn, I too wondered about leaving, because I struggle with the same question in my own life and ministry. How long do I stay where my gifts and abilities are not wanted, and how do I know when it's time to leave? Your friend makes a lot of sense; those are some of the same types of reasons I've come up against, in my slightly different context of a mission agency, over the years. The concern is less about what Scripture teaches and more about how certain people will react if we do something "unpopular." I'd love to hear some wisdom from others who have been down this road.

I mourn for you church. Starting from a small bible group our church included women at every level from the beginning. The blessings that we have received from the leadership of our women are incalculable. As a husband, I could not be a member of a church where my wife's incredible management and leadership talents are not valued and utilized. In a one year stint as our churches executive director her insightful and extremely successful leadership totally silenced the few "angry men" we have.
In addition, when the younger women see what the women who are in leadership positions can accomplish they are inspired and enpowered to do the same. To see teen and twenty something women, who often have grown up in our congregation, step up knowing that their efforts will be honored and accepted is truly a gift from God.

Caryn, thanks for your post. I am so sorry to hear of the painful process you are going through in a church you so clearly love.

Honestly I don't know whether I would say leave or not. But I write as a woman who was nurtured and discipled and given every opportunity to fail, learn and grow in leadership,by the men and women of my church.All I can say is that there is so much more out there than this. There is so much more than slammed doors, fighting to be heard and then picking up the pieces of your heart to face another day. You, and the other women in your church have a calling, god given, that needs to be expressed, for the glory of God, the strengthening of the church and the sake of the lost.

And I am telling you,your calling not worth compromising for the rather emotive threats of "hell to pay" for stepping out into it.
I wonder the value of being sidetracked into debate with those who will not change their position, when there is a job to do.

I was struck by Leo's wonderful comments, and noted what he said about the younger generation in his church seeing what the older women are doing . What will become of the younger women in your church? They too are being given a model by the absence of women in leadership, they too are being told who they can be, by the way the vote went. How long does it have to carry on?

Its moments like this is realise afresh how blessed and released I've been, and I am saddened that my experience seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

God Bless you Caryn as you work out what to do. My prayer is that you don't lose your voice, and that you don't do - nothing.

Caryn,
I will be praying and hope the Holy spirit willcontinue to quide you to use the Gifts he has instilled within you. I have seen so many women work beautifully in the church as they are quided by him to show his love through difficult situations/ I believe there alot that don't read his word enough and let him quide them. we just have to ask and he gives graciously. Blessings to you.

I am an associate pastor and I presently serve as the 1st woman pastor in my church. I have to say it isn't easy but it is totally worth answering the call. When I first told my mother I was going to be a pastor she said, "You can't do that, women aren't pastors." Since then she has changed her mind and even celebrated when I was ordained. I would like to suggest a book to you that has been helpful to me and to those who question the calling of women. "Why Not Women?" by Loren Cunningham and David Joel Hamilton. I do not believe that an "angry mob" serves our LORD well, instead a "quiet answer turns away wrath." Blessings!

I am in this same sort of situation. Here's what i had to do after being disappointed and hurt for 10 years in my androcentric, paternalistic, authoritarian home church- I took the talents and abilities that God gave me outside of the church walls. First, with so much pain in my heart that i could barely last through the interview without crying- I applied for an internship position as a chaplain at a local hospital. Praise God! I got the position. I soon learned from those pastors and chaplains around me that I actually had value to the kingdom of GOD. God was finally able to use me in amazing ways and I have grown so much in Him. I used to think that i had to stay in my repressive church in order to minister to the other hurt lambs around me but GOD showed me that He could handle them. I am currently crafting my exodus from my church, but it has taken years.

Hey, does the words "abuse" and "neglect" spiritally mean anything!! This is pure and simple spiritual abuse and neglect. I'm sorry. I've been there too and I left it. The Apostle Paul even admonished in his later years that the saints he was addressing help his co-laborers in the Gospel who were "women." Can we help it if God sometimes and get through to us and through us better than a man. Not saying we are superior, but I believe the Apostle Paul says "there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female but we are all one in Christ." Interesting and so dark minded that 17 individuals are worried about control, because that is the main issue. So sad.

Amen, "abuse" and "neglect" it is and there will be a price to pay for treating God's creation so poorly. If you find yourself going to a church like this look into "battered person syndrome" it's a real DSM-IV mental health diagnosis in which those who are treated poorly continue to return to their abuser with more false hope time and again. If you are staying in a church like that look at your patterns and see if you go from disappointment/pain/hurt to hopefulness to disappointment again and again. If so, remember Our Loving Shepherd is not the author of that kind of painful abusive cycle. Be bold! Take a stand for what is right and use yourself to promote another ministry- one in which women aren't relegated to the ranks of other lowly owned property.

The exclusion of women from serving in and contributing to the leadership of the church leaves us just as poor as if we excluded men. Each gender brings a unique perspective that is sorely needed by the other - tantamount to one part of the body saying, "I have no need of you."

Exclusion from leadership happens not only in the church, but in ministries and missions organizations, as well. Which is one reason why I started a ministry where my leadership skills could flourish, be challenged and grow for the kingdom. Thankfully, we have a healthy balance of men and women on the board of directors and at all levels of our organization. Sometimes women have to forge a way forward outside of established avenues in the church. It doesn't mean I don't participate in the church, just that I have found additional venues for aspects of my giftedness where I am not limited by my gender. God gave me those gifts, and wants them used for His glory.

It may be true in this instance that it is "easier to deal with angry men", but based on my years of pastoral ministry, it is no walk in the park to deal with "angry women", becuase "angry women" very soon have "angry husbands" coming at you, and "angry women" will undermine, backstab, and villify just as quickly, or more so, than "angry men", making ministry impossible.

Why are you disappointed? Because "godly" men did not do what you wanted, or simply because you didn't get what you wanted?

But, maybe now is not the time for anger, or disappointment. This is simply "life". Jesus' disciples were not always what he wanted them to be, but he never abandoned them, nor turned against them (although he did tell Peter once to "get behind me satan"). Jesus just kept on loving, encouraging and serving. And, eventually, they "got it".

I think there is a distinction here that is not being recognized. There is a difference between an elder and an executive director (as Leo's wife was). I have done a lot of Bible study on my own (not thru a college course or anything) because my initial reaction to having a "men only" position was "that's crazy!"

But...God is slowing getting through to my heart & head that it is possible to allow men the privelege and extra responsibility that goes with being an elder and still call women to leadership in other roles. Yes, even in the church! And I do not just mean Children's and Women's ministry - although those are huge, after all, there are more people in those two categories than men in most churches I'll bet!

I think the challenge is demonstrating to male leadership that we respect their position (as elders) but can still contribute as leaders throughout the church. I could see a woman being on staff depending on the job description. The executive director position would be similar because of the duties involved. I think main reason elders are to be male is that it involves authoritative teaching - and men should be teaching men, not because women don't "get it" but because how of God designed men (before the Fall remember) to be in charge (for lack of a better explanation).

I'd challenge everyone to consider what it is that God is trying to accomplish through His church. Look at ALL applicable verses. I still am doing this too...maybe some day I will understand well enough to gently explain it to the elders in my church. In the meantime, I have to gain their trust back because I've made it pretty plain that I do not appreciate some of their decisions. Maybe I was right; maybe they should be taking my view into consideration...but maybe I should be watching my own attitude as well. (It's a learning process to be sure)

After several meetings with the pastor, I finally realized that my skills, talents and gifts as a leader and a Bible teacher were not respected or used because I was a younger woman. I was so frustrated and upset because I knew it was God who had put inside me the passion to teach the Word--not only to women or children.

My wonderful husband supported me and we went into prayer mode and waited for God to tell us what to do but continued to serve in whatever capacity we were asked. It wasn't until two years later that God opened a door for us at new church that has allowed me to use my gifts in ways I had never imagined.
I look back on those two years fondly because I believe it was in that place that God prepared me for what I'm doing now and had I rushed off because I was hurt I would have missed out on a huge blessing.

My prayer for you is that you be open to God's leading in this time and that He give your heart peace while you wait on Him.

As I have thought about this since my first response, I have begun to wonder about the 13 of 30 who said "yes"? This article questions the decision making of the 17. It suggests that their thinking processes were less than pure. But what of the 13? Why did they vote "yes"?
Did they vote "yes" because they hadn't grappled with scripture, but simply went with the cultural flow?
Did they vote "yes" to have peace at home from wives and daughters?
Were they far to quick to dismiss aspects of scripture as being "cultural" with no applicability for today?
Maybe those who voted "no", thought of Numbers 16, where Korah, to gain position for himself, used the argument "the whole community is holy", or as some use Paul, "there is neither male or female".
Maybe those who voted "no" had reasons for their decision which some cannot fathom, simply because they don't want to hear the answer.
Maybe those who voted "yes" need to be talked to, while those who voted "no" need to be listened to.

The first Scripture that come to my mind is
"The servant of the Lord must NOT strive with man." Of course, even Jim can interpret this usage of MAN to mean, not WOMEN either! It would help if we all read the Scripture without our bias in one direction or the other. Scripture gives accounts of women being in leadership roles beginning with the First Testament through the New Testament.
Oh if only the men and women of the Church were as religious to keep the Commandments of Jesus as they are to contend for 'proper' genitals in leadership.
I know I was called of the Lord to preaching and teaching role. In the Church I attend that is acceptable. The problem sometimes is that we greared up women want to do too much for the complacent males and sometimes, females to appreciate. You see if they do not want to run as fast as the other person then they get left behind; so the obvious thing to do is to trip the energized one. One thing I know is that the nay sayers cannot support their disregard of women in ministry. So.. where does that leave the women with a calling to go? Out into the streets and market places baby! The majority of the men won't go there. It's new territory, and there is no "position" in it. Women disallowed in their Churches to preach are welcomed in the prisons and in shelters and in the community of the mentally ill and in the neighborhoods where children's parents either cannot or will not take them to Church where the Male Pastor is ministering. The fact is that women called of God to minister DO have a place to minister; women called to preach WILL have a place to preach because Scripture says a man's (excuse me, this word means women also) gift will make place for him. (Come on boys, get into the Greek and Hebrew)
My experience, even in the Churches that ordain women, is that if you want to get energized for the Lord and really get going, there are lethagaric persons who fight you off just because they don't want to go that fast or that hard or get that involved. KEEP IT LIKE IT IS is their driving force. Never mind that "like it is" doesn't get the job done.
BUT this also is my advice: we must have a Church connection, so I practice being connected to a Church, while following the Lord into the highways, so to speak. He, the Lord, knows that women will be quick to take His message back to the guys who weren't out searching for the answers.
I love you persons with male gentilia, but what does that have to do with anything except marriage and half of the sexual experience? IN THE SPIRIT there is neither male or female. Delivering the Word of God really is not a matter of the deliverer of the message, but rather of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Word.

Caryn:

Thanks so much for this excellent post. I think you've voiced a frustration of many Christian women. While I'm not embracing the paradigm of those who advocate women as sr. pastors and such, I often wonder what capable, gifted, strong female leaders are supposed to do in the church other than bake casseroles, coordinate socials, and man the nursery.

Ramona,

I would like you to recheck your Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:24 says,"the servant of the Lord must not strive (i.e. be quarrelsome)". It does not mention either "man" nor "woman" (not even in the Greek, which you said we should investigate!).

I would also suggest that you re-investigate Proverbs 18:16 "A man's gift makes room for him". The Hebrew word used here for "gift", does not deal with a spiritual gift that we receive, but with a gift that we give to a leader to gain an audience. Somewhat akin to a "bribe" in the context of the verse.

Women are "considered" godly enough to be the hands that rock-the-cradle. Godly enough to cook and sponsor fundraiser's. Godly enough to organize, plan and schedule conferences. Book hotels and handle finances. Godly enough to pray for male leadership. Godly enough to teach Sunday School, VBS and direct choirs, play piano and lead praise & worship. Fight in combat and fly warrior aircraft. It is sad that no matter what we have seen or demonstrated, there are some who will never accept what Jesus and Paul said regarding the equality of the cross in relation to male and female and the body of Christ; but would rather get hung up on citing Paul in reagards to one scripture. Real equality will only come through God's will and man's listening ear and not man's vote. So as women, who know we are called to minister, we work where the Lord allows us, in the capacity in which we are allowed and consistently pray for his will to be done; because whither Jesus is taught through peace or strife - so long as he is taught; that is what is important and beside what does it matter who gets the credit or title so long as the work is being done.

I am so tired of the arguing back and forth. For me, the issue boils down to listening to the heart of other people, and even God. We're so quick to point fingers either way, and so slow to walk with people. As a woman given a teaching gift, I've struggled to reconcile that with Scripture. Through my years of this, there has been a lack of men (and women) willing to walk with me through the battle. The male leaders in my life have shrugged apologetically (sorry, we see you are gifted, but we don't know what to do about it), and there weren't female leaders. The most hurtful men are the ones who are loud and quick to decide, but won't walk with me to figure out why I am gifted at teaching but female. My brother is one, and though I love him, I view his quick decision in this area as more of a desire to keep things the way they are than to explore the heart of the matter. Change is scary for people, particularly with spiritual matters. And looking at the letter of the law while ignoring the heart can't be a great hermeneutic either. What was the heart of God towards women, and where are the men who will walk with women to discover it? I've found my peace with God about my gifts (from Him!) and scripture, but I am distressed for those stuck in arguing, who aren't willing to dive in deeper.

WOW! I really didn't realize there was so much controversy over this. How sad.

The church that I go to does not have women in senior leadership roles (ie pastor & elder). The women in our fellowship, however, do not feel that our leadership gifts are under valued.

God has given each of His children specific gifts to edify the body. Those gifts are to be utilized in the roles that the Lord has put each member in. As a young teen, I remember weeping and crying out to the Lord, why did He make me a woman as I could not preach and teach in an elder's position. Why did He give me these gifts when I could not utilize them in what seemed, at the time, the only way to use those gifts.

He has since shown me that the church is bigger than my local assembly. I have been given many opportunities to teach from His word, to lead, and minister in a way that my gifts can be used to edify the church without me bearing the burden of authority. We're called to pray for our elders/pastors. They bear a responsibility to the Lord and the people, that my woman's shoulders are not strong enough to carry.

That doesn't mean I am any less valuable than my brothers. Nor does it mean that my gifts are not equally important. Nor does it mean that my gifts to teach and lead are any different than those of my pastor's. It does mean, however, that the position that I fill- the role that I play- is far different. I am asked to sit on various different committees because my opinion is valued (these committees were neither women's nor children's ministries). I have been commissioned by my church to lead in a local outreach ministry.

I do not know a single woman at my home church who feels that her skills and gifts are not being valued. I have only encountered one person at our church who felt that his gifts were not being utilized. Unfortunately for him, what he wanted to do he did not possess the gifts to fulfill those roles properly. Likewise, he was unwilling to be taught how to use the gifts he did possess.

Perhaps that's the real problem.

Are we women desiring roles that perhaps we weren't meant to fill? Have we taken on the arrogance of secular feminism? Perhaps even leaving God's will out of the picture? Is our dissappointment one of our own making?

As for the angry men, the same reasoning applies. Don't get angry over some perceived threat. Get angry when scripture is being twisted. Get angry when unity is being threatened. Get angry when the Lord is being defamed. That's a call for us all!

How old are these men?? Do they know what century this is? Sounds like the good old boys club if I ever heard of one. I agree with the above post that this is all about control. They might be godly men but they are clueless. I can't believe they women in your church passively put up with this bad behavior! As a woman in this century I'm disgusted!

I am in a church where leadership encourages everyone to do what they are called to do. My situation is that I know my gifts and what the Lord is calling me to do. I know it is not time for me to leave this body, but I don't have support from the people , and many men( some women too) are convinced that women in leadership is sinful. There are changes happening now in other ways, which could make my work easier, but I feel it will be harder. This hard place is definitely not new for me, so I am resolved to stay and bring any light I can until the Lord moves me on. Battles are not won by shrinking back, God will help us, we must be strong.

Interesting topic. Two years ago, our church was without a pastor and the only ministers available to help keep the church afloat were two females (I was one of them). We preached the sermons, visited the sick, counseled the needy, etc. I even organized 9 new ministries that were flourishing. Fast Forward, we have a new pastor and we ministers have been relegated to the sidelines with no leadership responsibilities other than preside over services (read scripture and pray). The ministries organized are no longer flourishing and have little leadership, goals or missions. The Body of Christ continues to suffer because of the prejudice and gender bias. When will Sunday morning start looking the way the Lord intended with everyone enjoying serving in the giftings God has given. It is a shame.

In response to another person on this blog, a womans's shoulders are indeed big enough to carry large burdens. Look around you at what women do everyday from the mother supporting her family to the volunteer at the homeless shelter. No one said that Deborah and Jael couldn't bear burdens. The world sees women making great strides including running whole countries, then sees many Christians saying that women can't run simple churches. This discredits the Gospel.

Re: Marianne's question about the age of the "clueless" men: If what I'm hearing is correct, it is the YOUNGER men who are more opposed. In fact, I've heard from many male "senior" (in age and position!) leaders in our church father's age who STRONGLY support allowing women into office.

Perhaps they are wiser, more secure, and just more in tune with the gifts of women and what most reflects the heart of God. In this decision, I feel betrayed and confused by my generation. I don't understand their views at all.

This scenario has been so played out in the ministries God has led me to over the years. I am continually baffled at where He has led in different seasons.

There is some GREAT scholarship out there that also has a high view of scripture. Christians for Biblical Equality has helped educate and "liberate" my theology so I can freely minister in my gifting.

Sometimes my circumstances have created barriers to serving, but God is never limited. Sometimes God uses me to sideway and upward influence. I do it by BEING the pastor/teacher that God has gifted me to be. Oh, I may not have the pulpit, but there are many forms of communication where that gifting can shine. And I've learned to embrace the conflict and struggle. That is what being on the cutting edge is about...it is always met with resistance.

On the other hand, God has also released me from scenarios that were limiting and I'm grateful. The only place I take solace in this gender debate is that God is intimately involved in the conversation. And from my study of world history and God's movements, he has often allowed seasons of pain to work out something else for the kingdom. The Good News would not have spread without persecution...it is still true today. So in the face of American churches still being so limiting to women, there is a mission force sharing Christ's love around the world that is over 60% women. Yep - that's right! So I will continue to fight for gender equity in ministry, but also lived surrendered to God's greater purpose. I'm willing to give him my pain for the sake of something bigger brewing I can't perceive yet.

Thanks for opening up this topic. In my congregation after much discussion and angst, the congregation decided to allow only male elders based on the model in the Bible. I have struggled with discerning God's will in this, for me and for the congregation, for the past 5 years, and have difficulty forgiving these men. However, an elder woman has gone consistently to their meetings, prays for them, and has been an example to me of how to deal in a Godly way with this situation. My pastor has been an encouragement for me to go to seminary and to occasionally preach. However, I still feel the wound and still feel excluded. And nevertheless, God still uses me. And I too have not yet felt that it's time to leave. My hope is to truly forgive, so that this does not bring pain to me, before I move on, and pray that Jesus is in the decisions I make and the church makes.

I am a seminary grad who has ministered in the church for 45 plus years in every position except senior pastor and yet, I am having a difficult time finding a full-time position. In the last position I applied for I was told that I was highly qualified but that my personality was too much like the senior pastor's (a male) and so was not hired. They eventually hired a man. I do minister in my community but have a desire to minister within a fellowship but am not sure what to do at this time. I am not getting any younger and so I pray and wait and minister in other ways. I too, am very disappointed in the new generation of pastor leaders in the post modern church who are continuing to promote men ruled and lead churches. I just don't understand them at all. There is plenty of excellant theological discussions and studies that provide Biblical evidence of the value to the church of both women and men ministering together in leadership positions. My husband and I have recently left the denomination that I was raised in because of it's continued refusal to ordain women in ministry. The reason given most of the time is "it is too emotional an issue and we are just taking it off the table for now". The same reason given in Caryn's church. We now attend a church in which women are encouraged to use their spiritual gifts to minister in leadership and are given recognition of these God-ordained gifts by ordination. I continue to minister and pray for God's leading in my life and in my church.

Caryn,
I read your article with great interest and am sad that there is such a rift in your congregation between men and women. God's Word tells us that we war not with flesh and blood but against the rulers of the darkness of this age (Eph. 6:10-12). This situation is not about who is right or wrong but about the enemy being allowed to stir up trouble and deflect God's children from the most important issue...trusting God to take care of His business in the fullness of His time. God does not gift His sons and daughters with spiritual gifts and call them to areas of service just to allow them to not accomplish His plan for their lives. Isaiah 43:18-19 reminds us that God is able no matter what we can see to do what He has planned before the very foundation of the earth. God desires our obedience above all else and He desires us to draw near to Him and for our relationship with Him to grow daily. Remember, His Word is powerful and we are to enter His rest (Heb. 4:8-13). I encourage you to not grow weary of doing good (1 Cor. 15:58) and to trust God even when your circumstances are as you describe them. God is eternally in control and is not surprised by what you are experiencing. He has already made THE way of escape...trust Him to show you (1Cor.10:13). Watch and seek to know what He wants you to learn while you are in this place. I have been in similar circumstances and oh the joy of submitting to God, drawing closer to Him, and experiencing Him work out His plan in my life!

I am in agreement with you concerning women in the ministry. Really it doesn't even have to be as much as a Pastor or Elder positions in some congregations. I didn't inspire to be those positions (maybe because I am only in my early thirties). It can be just a Worship Ministry position. You are told you are a member of the staff, but you are not allowed to be a part of the staff meetings. Your opinion is not appreciated nor wanted. The women of that church were strong and outgoing people. They had ideas and talents that were hidden because the men told them it was not their place to teach a Sunday School class, lead a bible study or chair a committee unless children or women were involved soley. They chose 20 and 30 year old boys to be teachers, deacons, and elders just to have a position filled by a man. How qualified is a new believing man to make decisions? Titus gives other defining qualities of a leader, why are they ignored when a man applies? I gave a presentation not unlike I would give in a boardroom at the bank where I am an Executive. Even though that presentation gave ideas to grow the church and build needed ministries it was not considered because I should have chosen a man to present it. The scriptual base, the well presented power point, the articulate speech meant nothing because of my gender. We left the church shortly after because my husband was aggrevaited with their decision not to ulilize my gifts or any other female. 5 other men left with their families because of the same reason. Being led by the Spirit wasn't as important as being a man.

I'm not expecting this comment to be posted, but I'd love a response to my e-mail address:

I wrote a thoughtful, post-feminist response from my position as a woman in professional (non-ordained) leadership in The Salvation Army, who has also held six-figure leadership in the business world. Basically, looking at a recent survey of the Western business community's response to women (traits modeled by women leaders are always devalued whether the specific culture under examination values those traits or not) I suggested that this isn't just a church issue. And if it's so thoroughly ingrained across cultures, then either the feminists are entirely right and it's strictly a patriarchal power issue, or the feminists are entirely wrong and it's a hard-wired God-designed issue intended to put men in charge. It doesn't have to have anything to do with who has the greatest leadership gifts -- goodness knows, I've had managers who were less competent than me and I've managed people who were far more competent than me, God bless their patience!

My post hasn't appeared in this blog. I can only assume that I overstretched the bounds of your conversational tolerance. I had hoped that Christian women in leadership were also Christian women who were ready to think deeply. My mistake.

Try Assembly Of God. Women are allowed in leadership there.

The Bible is very clear about women leadership positions. Reference 1 Timothy 2:12. Women should NOT be in leadership positions where she would have authority over any man. That includes being teachers, decons, pastors, or elders. Any church who allows women to have any leadership position where she would be directing a man does not obey or respect the Bible as the authoritive Word of God. Any woman who holds the feminist belief that this is unfair or untrue should ask the Lord for guidance (and possibly salvation)

Women should protest and leave such churches. That will get the message out to the male leadership quick. I have no patience for injustice.

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