Kyria's Gifted for Leadership

Comments

It's times like this that I'm glad that most of my public will be in church where in our tradition, the pastor wears an alb, which nicely covers everything. This is not to downplay the reality however of this frustration. Ugh!

Posted By: Ivy | September 26, 2009 6:15 AM

To look at this logically it seems there is a difference between dressing provocatively and dressing professionally. My senior pastor is very physically fit. He wears jeans that fit and tailored shirts. He dresses professionally that (admittedly) does NOT make him look ugly. But I don't shoot him emails telling him to dress uglier. Why? Because my eyes and my mind are my responsibility. Although I believe we have a responsibility to dress in a way that doesn't provoke eyes or minds to wonder... there is a point where even a potato sack can look sexy. If that email were sitting in my inbox, I'd check if off as personal insecurity on the writer's part and hit delete.

My two cents. Thanks for sharing.

Posted By: gina | September 26, 2009 10:27 AM

I would like to add that our dress is a reflection of our connection with God in that He created us in his image and called us royalty. Shouldn't we dress carefully to bring out our God-given inner beauty and to represent him well? I believe that our attire should be part of our worship, we are called to be be a living, breathing, walking, talking sacrifice. Let's stand proud and stand up for our beloved Saviour and be front line influencers for His glory and not stuck in defence.

Posted By: Rochelle | September 26, 2009 11:21 PM

I agree the email was written someone with a fragile sense of self-esteem. However, I found the ensuing questions thought provoking and worthy of considering.

I don't believe enhancing the natural beauty of any woman through makeup or well tailored clothing would entice men to impure thoughts. We are ultimately responsible for how we choose to focus our attention.

Posted By: Kristine McGuire | September 27, 2009 7:08 PM

I would like to know as well. I am an attractive well built woman (I'm no super model, but it would be foolish and false humility to pretend I'm not pretty). I've struggled big time with how do I present myself. Just walking with confidence and wearing clothes that are tailored to my form (not form fitting, just tailored) sometimes has landed me in trouble. I lead the worship music time to time but refuse to do it permanently because I just can't stand the thought of a vulnerable man missing the Holy Spirit and locking in on me.

How far is to far in helping our Christian brothers accountable by how we dress though? Sin is sin and I can't be held accountable when a man chooses to walk in it. I gladly will refrain from wearing anything that says "Hey look at my boobs and well formed butt!" But I can't stop walking confidently, speaking boldly, offering friendship, smiling and laughing, allowing the Holy Spirit's love pour out of me. God made our bodies the way He made them on purpose. I just wish I had a full grasp on what that is.

Posted By: Katie | September 28, 2009 12:10 PM

Now this is a very interesting story. In all my life I never heard about such a critical email send to somebody. In South Africa, where I stay, it is the norm that a woman who is involved in ministry must look presentable showing the standard of a Godly woman. As I'm most of the time work with under-priviledged women, I choose a woman, for a make over, with a new outfit at each conference. One of the women gave testimony at the end of the conference, telling us that God showed her He is preparing them as brides, for the coming of the Lord. Your example is very important in how women see themselves to be dressed at all times.
My very good friend, staying in the USA, told me that at one occasion she arrived at church, completely dressed up and somebody told her that she's looking like a lady who's having a night out with her husband. My reply to her was: TELL her you are dressed up for your Saviour, you're having a night out with Him!!!
I personally think it's jealously - ignore it - go on as before - I dare you!!!

Posted By: Nerina Smith | September 28, 2009 9:46 PM

I agree with the word Gina used in describing her (male) pastor -- professional. I believe we have to look professional. Our clothing should not detract from our message, which frumpy clothes can as much as skimpy, cleavage showing clothes. I do believe that we need to show respect for those to whom we minister, as well as showing respect to our Lord. We are drawing attention to Him, not to ourselves, and that should temper what we wear as well as what we say and do.

Posted By: molly dee | September 29, 2009 2:51 PM

I feel the pressure of these questions acutely. I am married to a pastor, and feel a real quandary about dressing in a way that rightfully is pleasing to my husband (on a date night, for instance), but which won't be examined by people we see when we're out and about.

Most memorable is one occasion at a wedding, when another pastor wouldn't even make eye contact with me because I had a very modest v-neck dress on, I guess. (Never mind that the dress went down below my knees!) He conducted an entire conversation looking over my shoulder at a wall. I am kind of a busty and hippy woman, but I think I almost overcompensate to cover myself up. In hindsight, I wish I had asked him if something was wrong just to see if that was the issue, but at the time I was so perplexed I didn't think to do it.

Posted By: Nancy | September 30, 2009 10:02 PM

Why can't men just be responsible for their own actions? They want to be leaders of entire families, churches, governments, companies - let them start by learning to lead themselves.

Most of us, as Christians, have a solid grasp on whether something we're wearing is "professional" or inappropriate. The Bible notes whether some women were comely or attractive without an attached lecture on how they needed to cover it up. In fact, in several cases, their beauty was used to attract men, as God intended it to. The reality is that, if all women were 800 pounds and wore parkas, men would find a way to have lustful thoughts about 800-pound women in parkas! The buck doesn't stop with us.

I feel like this is another area where men, rather than taking responsibility for their own inappropriate choices, are again trying to shift the burden and blame to the female gender. Women have weaknesses as well, but you don't hear a lot of talk among guys in the church about how they can help us not "stumble," unless its a half-hearted attempt to be fair in the context of this topic.

Posted By: Rachel | September 30, 2009 11:22 PM

Typical! Half of the commenters blame the men for being men. Well ladies, your stinking attitude is your fault ... I blame you for being women (yes it is irony). Forget the men / women distinctions ... there is neither in Christ ... we all have to express the life of Jesus meaning I take responsibility for my actions e.g. lust and you take responsibility for yours e.g. enjoying being a stumbling block.

Posted By: Na Yeo | October 1, 2009 8:29 AM

Does modesty mean downplaying the natural beauty with which women are created? NO.

Does modesty mean less fashionable, less trendy, less flair? NO.

Does modesty mean not just covering curves (skin), but showing less of them (form)? NO.

Does modesty mean sacrificing attire that makes women feel confident because they do, in fact, look attractive? NO.

Does modesty mean an attractive woman (see part one) cannot lead, preach or teach in a coed environment without putting men in a less-than-righteous position? NO. NO. NO.

Being attractive is not a sin. God LIKES to create beauty. God IS beauty, so his creation reflects that (in many different ways). To fail to appreciate that beauty is to fail to properly worship the Creator.

I feel that this type of insistence that Christian women need to actually TRY to be UNattractive is just another of Satan's ways to limit the talents, abilities, and giftedness of women in ushering in the Kingdom of God.

Each of us is responsible for ourselves. Follow the Holy Spirit's lead and know for yourself that you have a clear conscience. Men are also responsible for themselves.

Posted By: Robyn | October 1, 2009 10:07 AM

Exactly, Robyn. And I think we would all do well to remember that pretty is as pretty does. Modest clothes can't hide a prideful attitude, nor can skimpy clothes distort a truly beautiful nature (though they might detract from it). It's about time we took some responsibility for ourselves, instead of minding one another's business.

Posted By: Alison | October 1, 2009 6:52 PM

I hope you will forgive me for what will most assuredly be deemed a negative comment, but I find the entire discussion about what a woman should or shouldn't wear ridiculously juvenile.

If we women have freedom in Christ and are clothed in his holiness and guided by the Holy Spirit, we are free to wear whatever we want to. We don't have to answer to anyone but God.

But let me go on to another point; namely, that Christian women need to desert the current evangelical women's personae which has a tendency to focus on narrow personal issues--me, me, me--and focus on more serious, weightier matters, of which there is no lack. We're worried about the effects of cleavage when the world is going to hell in a hand basket??

It is time to grow out of adolescent obsessions and to grow into mature Christian womanhood.

Fay Voshell

Posted By: Fay Voshell | October 2, 2009 10:55 AM

The sad fact of the matter is that men are visual creatures and women can't be held responsible for that. I am an attractive blond, blue-eyed, large breasted, curvy woman who could be dressed in the proverbial potato sack and still have men lusting after me. There is always going to be some part of a woman they will find attractive, it just depends on the guy. I used to occassionally wear low-cut blouses, keeping up with fashion, but when I met the man who became my husband and was a stronger Christian than me, he pointed out my error in dress and the fact that as a Christian woman, I need to do as much as possible to keep men from lustful thoughts. It is true, we are responsible and can change how we dress but again, as I said, sometimes it doesn't matter what you wear. If a man is prone to lustful thoughts, he will find something to lust for. So in the end, it is not our fault and ultimately they must answer to God for that sin.

Anyway, the email you got sounds to me like a jealous wife who is married to a man with a lustful eye - that's her cross to bear, not yours.

Posted By: GodChick | October 2, 2009 11:00 AM

You can't know the real origin behind the woman's comment unless you were able to get to know the circumstances of her life personally. Obviously, she herself thought you were attractive and we can only assume that after your message to this mixed gender crowd that she and her husband had a discussion that apparently left her feeling insecure.
However, I do not believe you should downplay your natural beauty for this is the exact way our Lord created you to look.
Modesty; absolutely, our clothes should fit in good taste,but they do not have to fit like a sack dress.
Fashionable; yes. But not so fashionable that your clothes have more of a message than God.
Considering all of the above, a woman should absolutely feel confident in what she wears. If you are distracted in any way by what you have on causing you to feel less confident, then God's message through you could be compromised.
The coed environment however, could be the problem. Paul specifically instructs the woman not to teach a man.
1 Timothy 2:12
"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
I know this is hard for some women to grasp, but it is the Word of God. A woman's ministry,should be directed to other women and children.
Now there is the issue of a man looking upon a woman in lust even if she is not "teaching". This is clearly the "flesh" of the man warring with the spirit. A woman who has a husband that has this war going on inside him - I feel for her.
But, the woman that he is looking upon in lust cannot be held responsible for his weakness in the flesh.

Posted By: christen roden | October 2, 2009 12:02 PM

Christen roden, what if the woman was a single missionary or a missionary wife giving a missions update briefly before a church service, or the president of the WIC reading the announcements? Neither of those situations usurps a man's authority and both situations give ample opportunity for a mixed gender crowd to get an eyeful. If nothing is hanging out and the clothes is the right size and not too tight, she's in the clear.

Posted By: Loris | October 2, 2009 12:40 PM

As someone said, women are responsible for their behavior, and men are responsible for their behavior.

Those who say "we are free to do whatever" conveniently forget the part that not everything is advisable.

Those who blame women for all the men's lust, putting them in burqas, do not take responsibility for their own sins.

For women - Romans 14:21 Are you "allowed" to wear a high heels, miniskirt, midriff open, tight string-top? Yes. Question is, why do you want to wear that? If you can honestly answer the question, then you know why it is wrong.(Don't try to tell me a 5" heels & miniskirt in an air-conditioned church is comfortable!)

It is NOT any men's place, unless he is your father, husband or pastor, to tell you to tone it down.

Yes, I lust. Yes, I look away when I see something that might make me lust. Yes, I have been known to not look, even in general direction of someone, yet talk to them. You should be proud of that pastor who stared at the wall. He consciously tried not to sin. Do you think about such things when you dress?

Let's take a step back and reiterate what I said - men need to take responsibility of lust, and women need to think about why they want men to lust after them... both are sins. Each one need to take responsibility for their own.

It will not work like amongst Muslims - mandate women to be covered completely, but it will not work if women do not take responsibility and dress like street walkers either!

Posted By: Attila | October 2, 2009 1:00 PM

A man's perspective on the problem...Please Ladies! The author was humbly trying to see this issue thru the lens that God uses when He looks at both genders. [In the light of the blog discussions, the focus here must be kept to sanctified Christian men in church interacting with sanctified Christian women in church, especially leaders. The key responsibility of leaders is that leaders carry the heavier burden to not cause the weaker ones to stumble.] First, the lust problem exists just as the greed problem, the envy problem, the unforgiveness problem, etc., exist. They all source from the flesh. Thus, be sure to consider that such issues in the church actually stem from God’s original purpose, which is meant for good, but the devil has perverted the good into the problem of sin. Second, remember that our battle is with principalities and powers in the spiritual realm, not with the people. It’s everybody’s problem and bigger than anyone or everyone, and must be always a key prayer point because it will always be a key problem…it has been for over 2000 years, and while so, the church also has grown. Keep the problems in proper perspective.

Posted By: Pastor Mike | October 2, 2009 1:03 PM

Men’s sin of lust is probably the most grievous common nemesis we face in this life. It continuously strains marriages, friendships, childhood innocence, and the list goes on. We Christian women need to be prudent to not exacerbate the problem. We need to let the law of love guide our choice of dress, love not only for our brothers but also for our sisters so we don’t inadvertently defraud them of their husband’s affection.
Suanne’s critic deliberately over stated her point when she chided her to be ugly but it is a point to consider. When a speaking engagement puts you at the center of attention an audience has nothing to look at but you. What in your appearance might be distracting? I have appreciated the example of Beth Moore’s wardrobe in her many video taped Bible study series. She always looks trendy and put together but you are hard pressed to define any body parts. She has the “dress thing” down to a science. We need not be offended nor offensive, just lovingly creative and wise.

Posted By: Linda | October 2, 2009 1:09 PM

What is the real double standard? Is it actually a leadership problem?

It’s an elusive problem because it’s typically considered out of the flesh and is defined in one’s mind by the influence of personal history. Everyone has different hot buttons about this subject.

Women will often wear sleeveless, spaghetti-straps and low cuts but think they’re modestly dressed. If men were to wear muscle shirts in church they’d be thought of as immodest, which is a word typically applied to women. Women's struggle is with the "look at me" culture of fashion vs. "don't look at other women" demand on their own men. In men’s fashion it seems that more is more, while in women’s fashion less is more.

It’s natural for women tend to think that men think like women do. Women tend to dress more to appeal to other women in a good way (women appreciate other women dressing well)… but forget what men think. Further, do women really look at a man differently whether he is saved or not? In her mind, a woman tends to group all men into one whole category, whereas, in his mind, a man puts each woman in her own category. He even splits his thinking about his wife into an outside-of-the-home category as well as an inside-the-home category.

Every good thing comes from the Lord, but the devil has perverted them into methods that seem right. This is the root of the perceived double standard. Both men and women must embrace that there is only one godly standard (which has a double purpose): Men and women in the home may dress one way for each other only, and dress a more modest way for being in public with opposite sexes. Does the world do this? No. Can the church embrace this as a singular standard for all? No, not as long as there are new converts and not as long as the church pursues the world.

In the church it is really a leadership problem. All church leaders MUST embrace the call to modesty as an example to the babes in the church. It cannot really be said that it is “someone else’s problem.” You’re either part of the problem or part of the solution… and this rests primarily with the leadership.

Posted By: Pastor Mike | October 2, 2009 1:35 PM

(a) I fully believe women can preach in mixed gender environments (since that debate appeared in this thread).

(b) I do believe that there are some standards in dress, partially dependent upon society (not b/c we become like society but b/c in different eras and cultures different things are and are not considered racy). I do believe a female preacher needs to err on the side of caution while still allowing herself to dress in a way that revels in her femininity and is confident and professional. There is a difference between tailored and form-fitting, imo, but that is a very subjective distinction. To be honest, some male preachers dress w/ enough form-fiting as to make it a little more difficult for my ability to lust. I do not blame them, although sometimes I wish they would tweak it a bit.

(c) That brings me to my last point. For centuries, the church explicitly taught that women were the ones prone to lusting (really!!!), not men. Now we are sort of in a society that believes the reverse. In reality, science shows us that we lust differently but that women's struggles can be very great indeed. In fact, if you look at a recent major study as detailed in the New York Times, women physiologically (and sometimes psychologically) respond to a much wider variety of stimuli than men. They may, if not molested, be less aware of their bodies for longer than men as adolescents (with men it is all so outer and overt as to invite more knowledge and exploration sooner), and men peak in sex drive much sooner than women. But once women are awakened, it can be a tremendous battle. As with men, some women have a low sex drive and some high, but there are actually more sorts of things (including visual--some women are extremely visual, and research shows that women as a whole are far more visual in terms of how their body responds than what their minds may consciously realize) that tend to make women stumble. So are we to tell the male pastor not to be nice to women as not to turn them on. Etc.?? Indeed, research shows that women are extremely stimulated by seeing other women in provocative dress (even if they are not conscious of this, their body responds strongly) not because they are lusting after those women but b/c it stimulates their own vanity--the idea that men might see them that way. The idea that men think of sex X number of times every hour is patently untrue--it is psuedo-science. Nearly half of men think of it less than twice a week according to rigorous polls. Yet these misconceptions persist. Our over-emphasis of men's lusts and under-emphasis of women's lusts may make many women confused (as though there is something abnormal about them that they struggle so) and may make many men lazy about comabatting their lusts, giving them an excuse to be "dogs." Some may even pursue lust in an effort to be more manly according to what society tells them is manly.

As a side-note, as a woman called to preach who is so-so on the attractiveness scale, I wrestle w/ society's thoughts on dress and looks for women preachers. I come across many women who are jealous of my highly imperfect looks. But then I look at famous women like Aimee Semple McPherson who was scorned for her so-so looks and pressured into contorting herself into a peroxied beauty in order to be received in her preaching calling. Some congregations evaluate any changes a woman makes in her style as vain, while others (or other portions of the same) are specifically proud of a woman preacher or a pastor's wife b/c of how she dresses (and emphasize this as though it were of the utmost importance). Uh, since when did most pastor's salaries even allow for truly optimal dressing, and isn't that a questionable use, sometimes, of stewarding God's resources.... I feel like there is this immense tug of war over women. They are blamed for being too pretty and blamed for not being pretty or posh enough.

Posted By: Deborah | October 2, 2009 1:49 PM

I am always surprised that when this issue comes up, it is considered a problem for the woman to solve. But the only thing Jesus is recorded to have said about it is, if your eyes cause you to lust, put your eyes out. Of course it's hyperbole, but it puts the problem where it is: entertaining lust. We've certainly learned that in a culture where a woman is covered to her ankles, men who are entertaining lust, look at ankles. It's not up to women to control whether or not a man looks lustingly after her - she can't control that.
It's also interesting to watch a woman's wardrobe change as she grows in Christ, not because she is taking responsibility for men's problems, but because she is learning more about her own value as a person and rejecting the way the culture is defining her.
When we put the problem of lust on women, that opens the door for anyone and everyone to criticize each woman for what she wears.
When we put the focus on learning and growing in Christ, the women grow in what they wear, and the men-who-lust (as distinguished from all men) grow in what they're thinking about.
And in the meantime, women who are still learning and growing weren't barred from our fellowship because of their clothes. Can you imagine Jesus telling a woman to cover up? I can't.

Posted By: Sue | October 2, 2009 1:57 PM

Solution to this? Again, you are either part of the problem (sin nature in the church) or part of the solution (sanctified leadership). Those who are part of the problem are typically in some degree unaware. Those who become aware and choose to be part of the solution are choosing Christian leadership beginning with themselves. Either you control yourself or someone has to control you. In general the Church is weak because leaders fear offending to help guide people to become aware of their problem. Why? Because so much of the church is about preaching what the Bible says and teaching principles and methods and not enough about pastoring (shepherding in fatherly love, building trusting relationships such that the "sheep" want to honor the "shepherd"). In the latter role there is likely chance of offense because of the relationship. The women leaders MUST build relationships and guide their spiritual daughters into awareness and motivation to live and dress in sanctified manner. It’s a heart issue on all levels. If you speak to the mind you offend the heart if there is no relationship. If you speak to the heart you offend the heart if there is no relationship. If you speak to the mind and there is a relationship it is found agreeable with a, Amen!, but not really embraced by the heart. However, if there is a relationship and you speak to the heart, the heart embraces and that issue of life changes. However, on any level, leaders must not fear offending…but must be always willing to meet with the offended and walk out the offense in their heart… this is issue of what to not wear is only a symptom of all other heart issues in the church…from which flows the wellspring of life. The outward is a response of the inward state of the heart. Love covers a multitude of sin... it's the only way sin cannot divide the church. We need more than ever for spiritual mothers and fathers pastoring/parenting the spiritual babes. It's not about stature or looks, but growth and growth only happens in a Father's loving relationship. They will no care about what you know (teach, preach, etc) until they know how much you care (time, listening, generosity, firm counsel, perseverance, trust, etc).

Posted By: Pastor Mike | October 2, 2009 2:37 PM

Loris, A single woman missionary should be ministering under the authority of her pastor or a missionary's wife would minister under the authority of her husband. There is nothing wrong with a woman co-laboring in the gospel. For Paul also praised Euodia and Syntyche in Phillipians 4:3. Nevertheless, they were under his authority.
This is not my opinion. This is the Word of God.
However, regarding the issue at hand:
1 Timothy 2:9 says:
that women should "adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works." NKJV. If the author was professing "godliness" and doing "good works" in "modest apparel",(which I believe she was) it is then that I would say, she's in the clear.
The most important question I would ask myself is, am I submitting to the authority of the Written Word. This is Truth. If what I am wearing or anything I am doing for that matter contradicts the Word of God, then I am contradicting God Himself.

Posted By: christen roden | October 2, 2009 2:40 PM

As usual, I find this discussion to hint of "men will be men", which I find quit an old-fashioned idea. I think both men and women struggle with lust, and the responsibility is more on the "struggler" than the one wearing the clothes, unless they're barely covered (both men and women). We had a pastor that used to go shirtless in the summer when we were doing sports outside and one of the women had to ask him to "cover up" because he was quite attractive and we were struggling. The bottom line is this; for both men and women; we can all choose where we put our eyes and our thoughts. 'Nuff said.

Posted By: Cheery | October 2, 2009 4:22 PM

A related issue: I am in leadership and speak for women's groups. I had a strong desire in my heart to try to reach some younger women, not just middle age and older...being a middle age woman. So, I got together a few young moms and asked them what I could do to attract their generation...or at least not distract from ministry to them. The FIRST thing they told me...DRESS DIFFERENTLY. I dress very professional, as I am a working gal and dress for the day to go everywhere. They said I need to dress "more like them" to reach their friends. MORE Casual. So, when I know I'm going to encounter the young generation...I take my jeans and sandals and change in the rest room before I get there. My Point in writing...it's NOT ABOUT US...but THEM. If we truly are desiring to reach the Lost and Touch the Heart for our Lord, we need to try to relate to those we are ministering to. If it's men...dress appropriately in that situation. If it's young Moms...dress appropriately. If it's career gals...dress appropriately to reach them. IT's not about US. To His Glory!

Posted By: Dorea | October 3, 2009 8:55 AM

Hmmm... I am late to this discussion and kinda hoping no one will make it down to my comment but I must share what God has been showing me about this topic. I have cared much too much about my appearance and everyone else's during my lifetime. I have struggled with my weight for some time now and I believe He has shown me that because of being heavier, I have developed some relationships with some of my brothers in Christ that I don't believe they would have felt safe to develop if I was thinner and more physically beautiful. He has challenged me with the question, "Would you be willing to downplay your beauty for the sake of the Kingdom, if you had a choice?" That was a very hard question for me to answer yes to. It actually blew my mind that it was even an option. Physical beauty is such an idol in our culture and I think women struggle with judging each other, just as much as men struggle with lust. And I also must add, I believe there is a point in our maturity when we can outgrow lust and judging by appearances. God's power to sanctify us is stronger than our flesh. We can have pure minds and hearts, through Christ.

Posted By: tj | October 3, 2009 5:01 PM

What an awful, insensitive email. As a woman training to be a pastor, this is a significant issue for me and for many of my peers. I grew up in a conservative church where women weren't ordained, so I've had very few models of how to dress appropriately for ministry (i.e. professionally and for my age without looking dowdy). Most women would agree that what we wear affects our confidence and how we present ourselves, so striking a balance between classic and trendy (while still keeping modesty a high priority and wearing things that make us feel like "us") is very important.

I'm a Presbyterian myself, but I've found some great tips at the blog of a Unitarian minister: www.beautytipsforministers.com
This is a great place to get some ideas and some general rules for what to avoid while in the pulpit or in other ministry circumstances. Don't write the site or the tips off as frivolous, either. As women we have to be extra careful about how we present ourselves, particularly in a field that is still heavily male. Dress too trendily (or, heaven forbid, sexily) and we'll be written off as either a distraction or a frivolous clothes-horse who is wasting our minister's salary at JCrew. Dress too old or frumpy, and we'll be viewed as masculine or out of touch. Especially as a younger woman (I'm 27), this is a difficult world to navigate and I'm grateful that you've raised the issue!

Any other women struggling to figure out this issue? Who have you looked to as a model to help you discern what is appropriate in the pulpit (as well as in other ministerial circumstances)?

Posted By: Courtney | October 5, 2009 12:33 PM

I love all the comments of justification here from women who simply like to dress slutty. Well here's a news flash- you're all disgraceful. Did women in previous generations have such a problem with this? No! And the reason all you gals have to expend such effort into picking out clothes is because you WANT to dress like the whores from Hollywood you so admire. It's very simple for a woman with any class, never mind a Christian woman- if we see your breasts, don't wear it. If it's so tight that we see the complete outline of your bum, breasts other sensitive spots, don't wear it. If it's above your knees, don't wear it. Very simple rules for women who actually want to look decent and have some class.

Posted By: Johann | October 6, 2009 4:23 PM

Only a few blogs in this discussion have touched on the subject of male pastors and the temptations that women face when dealing with them. This discussion has assumed that only men struggle with attraction towards women who lead, but the entire history of the the church indicates that women have a corresponding struggle with male leaders.

The reality is that every leader represents an idealised version of their own gender, and in platform ministry they tend to be sharing out of their heart in a manner that touches other hearts, which inadvertently provides the emotional context for temptation toward inappropriate relationship (also a lust of the mind).

Look around any church at sermon time and you will see some women idolising the pastor to an unhealthy degree. Why does this not trouble us? Why do we not talk about it? What is the double standard that sees us so very concerned about men (our men?) facing visual temptation, but ignoring the dynamic that leads to emotional lust and is so damaging to the thought lives of women? Where is our compassion for other women? Is it subsumed under jealousy and competition perhaps?

The solution is not a strict separation of the sexes (look at all the women, including "bad women" who followed Jesus), but developing a greater capacity to be honest with ourselves, with God and with each other

Posted By: kerry | October 6, 2009 6:33 PM

Kerry, I was one who had touched on male pastors. What you say is well done.

Posted By: Deborah | October 7, 2009 11:35 AM

First, that was a very unwise e-mail. As so many of you have stated, women (and men) must look professional, which is up-to-date without flashing the world. We both have responsibility for how we dress and how we react when around those dressed provocatively.

Now, as for the issue of women preaching in a mixed crowd, the "women be silent" verses were directed to people in a time and place where women were denied an eduction. Of course they couldn't teach when they didn't know what they were talking about. But, like the verses on slaves obeying their masters, those verses spoke only to that particular situation and not to people for all time (now, do you really believe that God sanctions slavery?). Of course, there are men with self-esteem issues who pervert those verses and use them to hold women down in order to give themselves a boost.

Posted By: P. | October 7, 2009 3:26 PM

wow... no one would EVER make that comment to a man - look uglier...

as a middle-aged woman who is already struggling with how the aging process is perceived differently for both genders - and who has worked very hard over the past 2 years to drop nearly 60 pounds and six full dress sizes - and is, frankly, very proud of that accomplishment... all i can say is wow...

i like my jeans - i still not a super model type - i never will be and i am totally ok with that - but i'm in the best shape of my life and it's take a lot of hard work to get there - and at least part of my motivation is that its a stewardship issue... so freakin' what if i also enjoy the confidence that comes with knowing that i look better, too...

if women really want to do something about the purity issue, let's quit scratching each other's eyes out and start at the beginning - the absolute over-sexualization of everything in this society - the treatment of sex as profane and perfunctory rather than holy...

Posted By: sara vanscoy | October 9, 2009 10:24 AM

I feel the need to respond to Christen: "Paul specifically instructs the woman not to teach a man. 1 Timothy 2:12... I know this is hard for some women to grasp, but it is the Word of God."

Yes, it is the Word of God... which means we must handle it carefully!
You can't take one verse out of historical, biblical, & language context and make it a proof text.
Language: The original Greek would be better translated: "I am not currently permitting...".
Historical context: Paul is fighting Gnosticism in 1 Timothy. (see 1:6, 20-21 & 6:22-21) Gnosticism drew in women because of their lack of education AND because of it's belief that Eve didn’t sin but had "special knowledge." (hence, Paul's arguments in the ensuing verses, and his command that women "learn" - 2:11).
Biblical context: 3 verses before the one quoted, Paul forbids women to braid their hair. I know of no church which preaches this. Why? Because Paul was addressing a culture where braided hair meant something different than it does today.
If we are to correctly handle the word of God, we need to look at the passage in it's entirety, in context. As I read 1 Timothy, I conclude (as did Paul) that "whoever desires to be an overseer desires a noble task" (3:1)... (the "whoever" is not gender bound). I actually find FREEDOM in 1 Timothy to teach and preach, as long as I have "learned" (2:11) and remain submitted and open to His Word & Spirit.

Posted By: pastorPam | October 9, 2009 11:15 AM

I worked at a church for over 2 years as the admin assistant. And also played on stage as the bassist for longer than that. I was in my early 20s at the time. Previous to me, the secretary (that was her title) was in her 60s. After I was hired, I was taken aside by the Elders and put on probation because I didn't dress 'appropriately'. I'm a 36DD (naturally) and weigh 130 lbs. I can wear a turtleneck and still show cleavage. And I did not -- and still do not -- dress like a 60-year-old church secretary. It was at that point that I decided that I needed to move on and work at a place that valued me and my job skills as an individual instead of placing legalistic boundaries around me based on someone else's standards, adding additional commandments where there are none.

Jesus' commandments were to the man, not the woman. Paul wrote to a specific church dealing with a specific problem, not you right here, right now in this day and age. There are snippets of wisdom we can take from Paul's letters, but they are not, ahem, gospel. Otherwise, G-d's curses to haughty and well-groomed women as foretold in Isaiah would come to pass all too often (Isaiah 3:16-23). Yes, it's taken out of context, but we do this all too often with scripture. My point.

Posted By: Sara | October 10, 2009 12:19 PM

As with anything else, everyone will have their own opinion. Regardless of how either gender dresses they can be perceived differently by everyone. If a person (male or female) is fighting with the spirit of lust, then a person in sack cloth and ashes will catch their eye. If a speaker is dealing with a spirit of lust, this will come across in their actions in a co-ed setting.

This is more a situation that one must pray and receive peace from God on their reaction. I am a "touchy, feely" person and am sometimes perceived as flirty. Yet I am an overweight, busty person but I am confident enough in myself to show my confidence. I am a beautiful person regardless of my weight or clothing. Does that mean if I am in a ministry where I am in front of others that I should throw modesty out the window? NO.

As ministers we are to be careful not to be stumbling blocks to others. Because God gives us free will, we do not have the control over how others perceive us or their thought patterns. We only can control ourselves and must search ourselves and God for the answer.

Satan tries everything to hinder us by emails such as the one that started this discussion. BUT satan also tries everything to push our buttons if we think we have victory over a situation. The person that sent the email may be fighting "baggage" of jealousy or something else that made her feel inadequate. We just never know what others are going through so we must be sensitive not to backlash. That is why we must know our motives and be prudent in all our ways.

Posted By: Melissa | October 10, 2009 6:05 PM

God spoke to me long ago and told me He gave everything He gave to me to bring Him glory and draw people to Him. None of it is for my pleasure, it's all for Him. I just have to keep my heart right before Him. If all things were created BY Him and FOR Him, doesn't that include not just sunsets, but me,too?

Posted By: Julie | November 5, 2010 10:06 AM

Post a comment:

Name:

Email Address:

URL:

Remember Me?

Comments: (you may use HTML tags for style)

Verification (needed to reduce spam):

Embracing Weakness

Remember When

The Cure for Influence-itis

God Will Make a Way